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Talk:Lightning Strike
Rumour: Lightning Strike always hits the head (helmets, etc.) Anyone know for sure if this is true, and what other skills this may be true for? --JoDiamonds 17:10, 23 October 2005 (EST) :I'd figure Lightning Strike, Chain Lightning (for the first target it hits) and Enervating Charge. The three spells send a lightning bolt to strik the enemy on his head. I do not however have any clue whether or not they do target the headgear. --Karlos 19:10, 23 October 2005 (EST) :: I reckon they'd just count as hitting 'from above', increasing the chance of hitting the head via that game mechanic. --Serps 20:45, 23 October 2005 (EST) :::Spells that autohit always hit the chest. --Fyren 02:47, 24 October 2005 (EST) ::::So both these statements, Lightning hits the head and spells that auto hit will hit the chest are "urban legends" I have heard in game a lot. Is there any proof to either? Is it on a case by case basis per spell? Is this tested? Mind Burn and Mind Shock icons show the spell hitting the head, are they exceptions? --Karlos 15:02, 24 October 2005 (EST) :::::This is easily verified against the doppelganger. Take off your armor besides chest. Take an autohit spell. When he casts it it won't do astronomical damage to you. (Perhaps bring skills to help you evade/block attacks, since his bow will sting a little when it hits a non-chest location.) --Fyren 15:34, 24 October 2005 (EST) ::::::I just did that, and you know what, you're WRONG! :) Thanks to you I just had my butt-kicked by the same Doppelganger I dispatch in 10 seconds!! :) Seriously though. His lightning Strike against me with full armor did 47 damage, but with just the chest piece TWO of his spells exploded for MAJOR damage.. Chain Lightning did (I think) 122 dmg and Lightning strike did 95 damage (I'm sure of that last one). My ele was toasted in her underwear! :) I think this proves auto hit spells target armor randomly like all attacks (because Lightning Orb did regular damage). --Karlos 18:22, 24 October 2005 (EST) :::::::Yup. I eat my own words. I wonder if I got stupidly "lucky" when I tested before or if it was changed. --Fyren 19:09, 24 October 2005 (EST) ::::::: Thanks for testing, Karlos. I'd intended to go back and double check, because I thought I'd tested it once months ago and found that some spells did hit the head, but Fyren was so sure that I questioned myself. For what it's worth, I believe this has been true at least since sometime early summer (I started playing in May, first character was an Elementalist...). ::::::: To add to the discussion, my impression was that: :::::::* Spells from above hit the head, always (ala Lightning Strike). :::::::* Spells from any other location always hit the chest. :::::::* i.e. My belief is that auto-hit spells do not hit random armor locations. But if you took off all armor besides your chest piece, Lightning Orb should always hit for armored damage, and Lightning Strike should always hit for unarmored damage (hitting the head). If that's not true, then I'm definitely wrong (and more likely some of the spells hit randomly, maybe all). :::::::More testing needed (by myself or others). An obvious test would be to only remove the headpiece, leaving all other armor on, to test the "spell attacks from above always hit the head" theory. (I know normal attacks supposedly hit the head more if the attacker is at a higher location, but boy that's hard to test.) --JoDiamonds 02:26, 25 October 2005 (EST) ::::::::As I said, I am certain I was hit for Lightning Strike once at 47 and once at 95, and I believe that the 47 landed on the Chest piece and the 95 was elsewhere. I can test with just an exposed head. But I believe that this test proves that it is NOT always the chest and it is NOT always the head. --Karlos 15:54, 25 October 2005 (EST) :It would be pretty silly if Lightning Strike and Chain Lightning always hit the head, the aeromancer armor bonus would be useless, assuming the elemental protection is not added globally (that would be something to test too).--theeth 18:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC) ::The bonus is not global. Since I've been wrong about things a couple times, I tested it: wore a full set of pyromancer's, took only flare, and let the doppelganger bean me. Flare did 31 most of the time, but sometimes 40. If the bonus was global, it'd always be 31. --Fyren 19:42, 18 November 2005 (UTC) The 2nd point in the Notes section is so bleedingly obvious it hurts. I'd erase it but Skuld put it there and he'd probably kill me. 132.203.83.38 19:58, 16 January 2007 (CST) :Skuld didnt add it, your right it was obvious -- Xeon 20:05, 16 January 2007 (CST) Lightning Javelin > This ? :This isn't a projectile so will always hit. --Fyren 12:58, 23 February 2007 (CST) Ah, okay--Rickyvantof 07:07, 24 February 2007 (CST) Buff? Would anyone agree with me that this skill ought to buffed slightly? Comparing it to Arc Lightning, it's almost the exact same spell, except Arc Lightning has conditional possibility to hit another foe. The one second recharge doesn't seem to be too big a deal to me. So if you ask me, this skill should be given, say, maybe +10 more damage, or maybe have the skill recharge reduced to 3 seconds. What do you guys think? -Wang 10:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC) :It's all dependent on its relationship with the other 'core ele spams' of Flare, Stone Daggers and Ice Spear. Their DPS has to be relatively similar, with differences based on their unique variations on Flare; LS can't be dodged and has armor penetration, Stone Daggers gets through prot more easily, and Ice Spear trades distance for extra damage. While it could stand to get a buff, is there any good reason to? It doesn't really promote anything as it has no utility, just damage. --Kale Ironfist 11:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC) ::Well, maybe this WAS the spam skill for Air Magic, but it was made obsolete once Shock Arrow was introduced. I agree that the fact that it can't miss is a major plus, but I don't think that's reason enough to make it onto any Airmancer's skillbar these days, since skills like Arc Lightning and Lightning Hammer have the same benefit and then some. All I'm saying is that its recharge is too long to be passed off as a spam skill, and its damage is too weak to be passed off as a hard-hitting spell. Dances on the border of balanced and in need of buffing, if you ask me. -Wang 12:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC) :::That's like saying Flare isn't worth bringing on Pyromancer bar. Do you see Flare being buffed any time soon? The whole point of the skill is to be a cheap attack for when your energy is low and can't do anything else. For the most part, these types of skills aren't worth bringing, regardless of context. Also, your comparisons are lopsided in that this is a core skill, whereas those you refer to are Factions only. --Kale Ironfist 23:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC) ::::So Anet shouldn't balance skills across campaigns? I don't think this needs a buff in damage. Arc Lightning needs a nerf in damage, or recharge. I'd also like to say I have seen flare in PvP, and it wasn't RA. Flare does about as much DPS to one target as a fireball that doesn't have recharge (the difference is aftercast and round off). StatMan 03:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC) :::::What's there to balance though? Arc Lightning is balanced in that you need a WATER hex, something you'd need to spend attribute points and/or the two skill slots to apply for fairly weak damage. If you're not doing either, you're using another party member to apply it, in which case, it's the cost of that character slot and your own skill slot to use it. If you're not even trying to get the conditional trigger, you have Lightning Strike, since it's CORE. Lightning Hammer is a buffed up but more energy hungry version of Lightning Orb, also a CORE skill. A campaign specific variant of a core skill has to be better conditionally, else there'd be very little reason to even think of choosing between the two. Besides, using an Elementalist for DPS is about the worst thing you can do as a spellcaster; you're not designed for it and is a waste of energy and time to try and DPS with a SINGLE target skill. --Kale Ironfist 11:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC) ::::I personally don't see how you can compare Flare with Lightning Strike... I have no problem with Flare (even though I'd never use it, personally). And I also don't agree with what you're suggesting - that core skills can't be compared to campaign-specific skills. If ANet were to make a campaign-specific skill that actually is a better skill overall vs. an already existing core skill with very little difference in the energy cost, cast-time, recharge, etc., they're giving the advantage to players from that campaign. ANet's been pretty good in adjusting so that that doesn't usually happen, but I think Lightning Strike is one of those skills that sort of slipped on past and was overlooked. I don't agree that Arc Lightning ought to be nerfed... To get all the bang an Ele needs out of Air Magic, one can't afford to sacrifice one or more skill slots and attributes to Water, just for a tiny little skill like Arc Lightning. -Wang 09:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC) I can see the link between flare and lightning strike, if only to a certain point. No one is telling you do DPS with one spell, nearly/all (intended) all offensive elemental spells have a reasonable recharge for good reason, excluding overrated, spammable SF, the recharge is to balance out the damage you can put out with one spell, like a martial weapon with different skills. You can relatively (keyword) deal out a constant amount of pain but recharge (related to energy, adrenaline and recharge of non ele skills) is there to make it not so insane. You can easily DPS a person to death with ele and air attune with air magic : lightning strike/enervating charge/lightning bolt thx4playingdiebai but that's justified that you have to use a wide range of spells to deal at a constant rate like a sword. Unlike martial users, there is no "sword or axe" of eles, they have skills that have a very very low recharge a.k.a spammable but no 1.33 "attacks" spells. Like wang is saying, no skills of the same caliber is usually better than another one, each one has it's shine in a certain way like +dmg moving, blah blah on hexes or insane damage but interupt heaven. But there's a conflict on nerfing arc lightning: is it for a air spiker or a versatile air-water ele? If it's an air spiker's tool, sure nerf it. But since you need a water hex and many hate using attributes skills with next to no points in it, it compensates by never doing as much damage it could if given to an Air spiker. As of now, i'm yet to see arc light be used on a air spiker's bar, but I have seen it on water hex eles who want a spell better than a "you enter half range zone, you die as fast as sin now" spell so nerfing it, I say No. Core spells are there as they are staple spells to give anyone of any campaign a basic equal against people of another campaign, especially if they don't have all the games. This means a factions person is not screwed against a nightfall person that badly vice versa. /endrant Flechette 11:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC) :Wang: I didn't say they can't be compared, I said they were lopsided. Campaign only variants of a core skill MUST be conditionally better, otherwise there is NO reason to even consider using them. Flare can be compared with Lightning Strike in that they are both the CORE ele low energy skills designed for damage. :Flechette: I didn't say single spell, I said single TARGET spell. It's pointless to deal damage through a single target skill, because you're going to be doing it slower than any other physical, but you're also expending your energy reserves and more time to do it. If you can guarantee AoE hits, that raises your DPS enough that you're doing more damage than a physical. --Kale Ironfist 23:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC) ::Hmm... I fail to see your reasoning in that a campaign skill "must" be "better" than any core skill. If a campaign skill makes obsolete a core skill, one would expect a nerf or a buff. Don't tell me that kind of thing hasn't happened in the past. Here on guildwiki, there are skills that are marked as "LAME" if they are, by consensus, considered unusable. And I don't dispute that Flare and Lightning Strike are comparable in that sense... But you said the whole point of skills like Flare and Lightning Strike is to be a "cheap attack to use when your energy is low and can't do anything else". Which is where my reasoning for considering a buff is necessary for Lightning Strike, because once you have nothing else to do but cast Lightning Strike, unlike Flare, you have 5 seconds with more of nothing to do. Which is where my point lies. Would it hurt to make it, say, a 3 second recharge? Would it make it incredibly unbalanced? I don't think so... -Wang 02:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC) :::The reason why it must be conditionally better is because the core variant has no conditionalities. Thus, the skill can be better, but not all the time, giving choice. If it was always better, the core skill wouldn't be used over it. If it was always worse, there'd be no reason to use it over the core skill. The reason why it's got the recharge is because of two factors: the 25% armor penetration and the fact that it's not a projectile. Without a projectile, it can't be kited/dodged, so they'll have to take the damage, much like the blood necro in Ensigns' Why Nuking Sucks. The 25% armor penetration is for air magic flavour, as well as pumping up the overall damage, which is why it has a lower base damage. As for the nature of buff/nerf, you have to consider that they're used for a reason. If the reason is 'it can't hurt', you'd see a lot more skill balances, but you don't. Buff/Nerfs are done for a reason (even if they don't make sense). Buffing Lightning Strike adds nothing to Guild Wars because an Elementalist down that far in energy to be forced to spam only 5 energy damage skills is either crap, or their team as a whole is crap. The game is filled with shit skills, with some being more prominent than others because they are so outlandish or other skills that do similar jobs are far superior. Now, if you said something along the lines of making air a viable source of DPS, then maybe that'd be a good reason. But Elementalists are supposed to be poor at DPS, so there is no good reason to buff it, which would also impact the viability of other 5 energy 'spammable' skills, such as the viability of Arc Lightning or Shock Arrow. --Kale Ironfist 05:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC) In general, air magic has 3 more 5 energy skills spammable than fire magic, look for yourself. Many people don't use lightning strike like they use flare, they often bring 2 spells like lightning bolt or enervating charge, people use flare as something when all other skills are recharging. If you see, fire magic has 5 5 energy spells that do damage and recharge fast enough to be spammable. On the other hand, air magic around 8, if you include shell shock and lightning touch. Not only that, most of them do more damage as they have armor penetration. The fact lightning strike has instant hit and armor penetration like many of it's comrades defeats the purpose for a decent buff for the spell, to be balanced, it'll get a rather small increase, as it is not supposed to be compared to fire magic, they are much like the ends of a scale, one is skewered towards spike damage, the other on crowd control. The point is that many air magic spells are spammable, something you'll have to be bribed to say for Meteor Shower or many of its AoE arsernal. I agree with kale on her 2nd last sentence, they only reason that you'll be that low for a ele in he discussed situations is if you're an idiot and uses lightning hammer too much or use the fire magic attributes heavy hitter's without dual attune prehaps even if you spam spells too much, regardless of any attribute in general. Lightning strike does not need a buff, don't be fooled in that air magic or even any elemental magic has to be in line with the rest, they all suit different purposes. Flechette 07:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC) :"kale on her 2nd last sentence" <- Like zOMG, I'm a girl now? --Kale Ironfist 23:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC) lol... I think everyone seems to be totally overlooking everything I say. My reasoning for buffing this skill wasn't simply because I think "it couldn't hurt"... that was more like part of my defense. I said that because generally, why do skills get buffed anyway? Or nerfed for that matter? First, anet considers what would make it more potent to its purpose, and THEN they consider if that change would make it unbalanced. If all things check out... THEN we ask... "would it hurt?". Earlier, I compared it to several different skills and pointed out its uselessness (in my opinion). That's why I suggested it could stand a buff. Personally I don't believe that Air Magic has ANY core skill comparable to Stone Daggers, Flare, and Ice Spear, so suggesting that Lightning Strike ought to be kept at a balance according to those skills isn't really a valid argument. And I totally agree with both of you... an Ele who doesn't know how to keep his energy high enough the majority of the time is an idiot. But that's not the only use for a low energy, short cast time, fast recharge skill. For example, when I'm running an Airmancer build on my ele, I use hard Air magic skills (Invoke Lightning, Lightning Orb, Lightning Hammer), but those all have fairly long cast times. So when an enemy is already at low health, I constantly find myself hesitating as to whether or not I want to cast another spell on him, or wait to see if he'll die... because so many times I've attempted to cast my high costing, slow casting spells on an enemy at low health, and he dies before the casting is even over, and the spell fails, thus wasting a lot of energy, with no return on the attunement because it didn't cast. So I considered to pack a quick casting, cheap spell, but all the air magic spells in that category have 5sec+ in recharge! So often I would find them unavailable due them recharging - even lightning hammer recharges faster than any of those. I decided it wasn't even worth it. That's pretty much why I suggest Lightning Strike gets buffed... I personally think a 3 second recharge instead of 5 would alleviate the issue, and still keep the skill balanced. -Wang 00:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC) :Your personal beliefs aren't what drives skill balances, but Izzy, and the whole point of Lightning Strike is to be an air counterpart to Flare/Stone Daggers/Ice Spear. As for a low cost low damage alternative to your nukes? Air has plenty that you could use, who cares if they have 5+ recharge? If the majority of your teams damage comes from Elementalists, your team is already subpar. On the topic of buffs to this particular skill though, buffing it to 3 recharge will change its relative viability with every low cost air magic spell in the game (Shock Arrow, Arc Lightning, Lightning Javelin, etc). You 'fix' one, and you end up with 3+ problems with it. Try and buff those to retain relative viability, and you get power creep, don't fix it and there's less reason for those skills to exist. Skill balance doesn't just involve the skills to be buffed/nerfed, but it also impacts other skills. As it is, it doesn't need a buff. --Kale Ironfist 01:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC) ::Kale, I hope you understand that most of what you're saying is purely your opinion. I asked the question because I wanted to discuss it, not because I wanted to pass my beliefs that this skill should be buffed. I already mentioned why I have a problem with these skills having a +5sec recharge. And may I ask which class you suggest ought to be the typical damage dealing class in your average party? I mean, are we even playing the same game? Across ALL games, not just Guild Wars, Elementalists (aka Black Mages, Mages, etc.) are typically always the general hard hitting casters. Sure, in Guild Wars, we have classes that can rival the damage output in certain situations, but generally, it's the Eles' job to clean house. And I completely agree and never disputed that buffing/nerfing a skill potentially impacts other skills. But can you explain to me how changing this skill to a 3 second recharge drastically impacts the use of those other skills you mentioned (or any other skill for that matter)? I'm yet to hear you provide any specific reasoning. -Wang 06:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC) IMHO if you want to clear out a house, use fire magic, air magic skills are almost (people may argue, as they are people) the worst choice to clear out mobs. Therefore you shouldn't be too worried about a skill in a catagory that is the opposite of fire magic. Unlike flare, if lightning strike is reduced to 3 seconds, you can pretty much cast alot of different spells with absolute no pause in between (except aftercast) unlike spells in the fire magic arsernal without reducing combat efficiency, like swapping out rodgort's invocation for something like larva arrows. The very key, base, most important thing about comparing (as before) lightning strike and flare is that lightning strike will always deal more damage to a target without (natural or not) lightning resistances being factored in. there are far more monsters resist to fire than lightning, increasing general efficieny damage-wise 'and the fact you'll always hit without any intervention(interupts, KD, SB ect). Another fact is that they nature of Air Magic puts most skills as lightning fast skills compared that of all the other elemental attributes. this means that'll they'll get in more damage as aeromancer than a pyro or hydromancer, the skills tend to be 1 or 2 second casts, and that's to most air magic skills, no other tier can match it's rapid speed casting of majority of it's skills without FC or weapon mods plus any other skills that can enchance casting time. Only one skill has more than 2 seconds of casting, and thats for good reason. It is not the be compared to stone daggers or flare, this skill and nearly all of it's attributes skills can be casted to spike and kill a target in a short period of time, something earth, water and fire cannot do without more than one person. Long story short, due to the rapid casting of the air magic tier and usually cheap cost, you can very much so deal a amount of damage equal or exceeding the amount dealt by spam fire, water and earth skills in equal time at no disadvantage. It is fine they way it is or people would be rioting on GWW about lightning strike. I find you two are arguing that it should be able to stand up without a complement of skills which is what paragons do and have been nerfed several times, or to be used with a range of skills, like what sane people do when using air magic. It is abit like stone daggers and flare but only vaguely so with the touch of air magic. It is the air magic equivalent, by no means air magic's version. Flechette 06:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC) :I very much agree with most of what you're saying Flechette. Fire Magic is better when it comes to huge mobs, and truth is, I started out as a Pyromancer, but what got me to branch into other elements is the fact that there are 136342349309823042 Fire eles in Guild Wars, all with the same exact build. I liked Air magic because I can take out enemy healers singlehandedly and fairly fast, helping the rest of the team bring down the remaining mob much easier. But I do incorporate skills that hit more than one enemy (which I wish Airmagic would have a bit more of) such as Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning. I don't agree however, with your statment "people would be rioting on GWW abot lightning strike" if they buffed it. Don't you think that sounds a bit overexaggerated? What would their complaints be? -Wang 00:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)